up in that debate with hillary clinton. >> right. >> again, that is who he is. i think we are totally for getting that. >> not only that, but i think we're also for getting that both of these men, to your point, they were who they always have been, even in governing. barack obama has infuriated his own base because of this perception that he doesn't fight hard enough. >> recurrent theme. >> it's a recurrent theme. with mitt romney the recurrent theme among republicans, the reason he doesn't have a lot of frentsds in his party is the idea that he's a vicious debater. newt gingrich called him a liar in which he demolished supposedly the best debater in the republican party and he is known to be a flip-flopper. what did he do in that debate, he flip-flopped. everybody played the type. >> dedrick's point is smart about mitt romney in some ways was the beneficiary of lowered expectations and the beneficiary of the success of the obama campaign as painting him as a character of a ba foonish budocrat. by the time john kerry took the debate stage the bush campaign had d